Paving on Main - Last Notes from Cavtera

Robert: Welcome back everyone. Contact Exec again here today with my friends Joe and Ryan. Cavtera is going to explode.

Ryan: Yeah.

Robert: You guys are gonna be huge. but we've we've spent a couple of episodes here and this will be a kind of third and final. I'm glad you guys are here to kind of wrap this up. But today I want to kind of cover like the broader topic, right? Of of kind of construction in general. things that maybe you've found with working with foundry and and Palantir that all of construction really needs to address. It's not a, you know, simple kind of thing. So it's probably too broad of a question to ask what needs to change in construction. but from what you've seen and and your knowledge, your experience, what kind of homework does a does a construction business that's trying to move up in this, you know, technological construction tech world What kind of homework do they need to do to kind of get things going?

Ryan: Yeah, I can maybe I can jump in there and happ happy to be here again, Rob with with you today. I I think construction companies, you know, there's there's a there's a lot of interest, there's a lot of you know, big push on AI. You know, they they hear about, you know, these these kind of high level topics, but ultimately What companies need to start thinking about is what problems, what problems do we want to solve as a business? Like where do I where don't I have visibility? Where do I feel some pain that it's something just maybe maybe it just doesn't feel right? You know, I I don't have great visibility on my labor force, or it seems like my staff are constantly re entering information, or, you know, what's what's everyone doing with these with these banker boxes full of paper? You know, and sometimes it's a matter of you know, if if you're in a senior position, like stopping someone in a hallway and say, hey, you what's in that envelope or what's in that box? Like what are we what are we really moving around? But I guess that's all kind of beating around, like getting down to the fundamentals and start thinking about what you know what part of my business or what pain point do I really want to solve here? That something just, you know, starts with a feeling sometimes.

Robert: Yeah. Joe, is there a common theme that's kind of coming across with you guys at Caftera of the of kind of what's what needs to start what we what people want to start with first?

Joe: it's usually around scheduling and resource management. Right. It's you know, as construction companies, we probably covered this in the earlier episodes, but we do work with resources, labor equipment and material. And the most successful companies are going to be the companies that, you know, manage those resources with the less f the least amount of friction moving forward. And so to Ryan's point, the more you can ask, you know, what problems are we trying to solve? Where are the pain points and why? And less about the how because we've got new technology to help solve that. and you know, it's the what isn't let's get AI. It's you know. It's how do we manage our resources effectively using AI?

Robert: Yeah. Well, now so that brings to interesting question. One of the things I talk about a lot, I even write about it a lot, is the the idea of the C PM schedule. there's products out there that are, you know, trying to, you know, help with the C PM schedule. I think we talked about it in previous episodes about how, you know, scheduling getting your teams like We've got a lot in front of that. There's a quite a bit to unpack there. Because one, we don't have the labor force we used to. So scheduling becomes super, super vital when you have less people for more work. Right? two, if you look at, you know, them that master schedule being part of the contract, now you've got a a real problem because if it's not right, you haven't really informed your client very well or you've kind of informed them enough to make them basically educated. But then there's always this this now what I call the coercion economy where it's like, Hey, by the way, here's the master schedule. This is what we have to go by. I don't care, you know, sub, if you didn't get the input from the beginning, but, you know, you signed the contract, so go. Lots to unpack underneath that. We're trying to solve schedule problems, but we've got a lot in front of it. So we've got labor force problems, we've got contract issues, and we've also got you know, demand from from a client that stands in front of that. Does tech do you think tech really helps that or does it just make it s extremely visible?

Joe: We, you know, one of the core things that we're tackling here is what we call bridging the operations gap. And, you know, we've always had schedules and we've always had shadow schedules and we've always had next day plans and all these things. The the next iteration of this, the next evolution of it's gonna be connecting, you know, the actual critical path schedule to operations. Cause we've never actually done that, right? There were two different products serving two different purposes. One was your CPM that you give to your client. The other ones are the Excel sheets and the pieces of paper that then the crew goes and builds that job with. The problem we're tackling is bridging the gap between those two and actually connecting, you know, scheduling and operations and making, you know, the schedule actually an operational tool that the guys can use, make it easy and simple, you know, to actually plan the work the way we want and then output the requirements to the client instead of the other way around, right? So Bridging that ops gap by making scheduling easier and actually executing, you know, the schedule that you've planned in the field. Kind of a high-level explanation of it, but the big thing is there is only one object called work paving on Main Street, but in the past we've had six different ways to manage that one thing. And they, of course, were never the same. And so making it so you have one actual paving on Main Street and then having that flow from planning to execution and back again seamlessly is the next iteration.

Robert: Do you guys utilize subcontracts for some of your stuff, on the on the Thomas Kavanaugh side of the world, I guess?

Ryan: yeah. Yeah.

Robert: So in that again, that's another kind of h let's say hitching the giddy up kind of thing where it's like you've got somebody that's signed a scope, basically said, Here's your scope of work and then there's you know, non delivery or there's there's a question about that. You know, there's an RFI or that's not quite what we we we signed up for, which then causes again, goes back to causing problems with the schedule. so then that, you know, that's something that GCs, you guys, everybody kind of deals with. What about technology surrounding that? And then again, that technology needs to transfer down to the sub where that sub, again, everybody on the same page, right?

Ryan: Yeah, and there's you know, once again, there's so much to unpack with with this topic. But I mean, sometimes it starts as simply as, you know, even even understanding internal within your organization, you know, what what you know, where is where's a subcontractor made commitments across the company because even something even without interacting directly with the with the subcontractor, just understanding where you have this, you know, one sub deployed across across your your business, across all verticals is you know, there's There's so many tiers that you can kind of derive value, you know, and and And and just having that shared internally is kind of like maybe maybe your first step. But then having a mechanism to where the the subcontractor participates directly through a portal or some other technical solution where they are now directly interacting with the schedule. I would yeah, I would call that another tier. But you know, there's scenarios because sub you know, when you j like like every company, subs have different levels of sophistication and and and appetite to working with with tech themselves, right? You know, so one one outcome was you know, having a better visibility on a subcontractor's resources than they do themselves internally, because you know, through managing subcontractor as an object or that that individual sub as a as a entity in the ontology, you end up with a better resource allocation view than they have themselves in whatever paper and napkins and spreadsheets they're using you know to man it to manage the resources. So it's it's multi-tiered and it's it's it's not well one size fits all Okay.

Robert: So are you so you're able to create, I mean, again, it when we go back to the the ontology, the nouns and verbs of whatever you're trying to do, are you able to create a I don't know, a a a I hate to say the word, the portal or something for that sub to be able to go and look at his their specific scope and they be able to use use it as well if if you have, you know, found if you're working with Foundry. Are you able to create that?

Joe: Yeah, the kinda overly simplistic answer is everything's possible with Foundry 'cause it is just code and you're coding within a platform. so long story short, yes.

Robert: Okay. So you could really, you know, I I would say, you know, kind of source out some of your technology that you've created to your to your subs to kind of help them along and then they could decide how they they wanted to interact with it. the thing about this, and I was thinking about this the other day, what happens when you create this code for your stuff? Who owns that? I it because again, I think that's a that's a big question of like hey, I've spent a lot of time creating all this stuff and this software that's does all this stuff, right? Who owns it when I'm done with it?

Joe: It's it's you know it's the whoever owns that foundry instance or the stack, right? Like the way I explained it is yeah, the license holder. The way I usually the analogy I always use is like, does Microsoft own your essay? If you write it in Microsoft Word, it's like no, it's your essay. You just use that tool to produce it. We call it like we build tools within their platform. So the software is developed we're solving problems with their software, you know, by building tools inside of it.

Ryan: But your unique relationships between objects and the way you manage and schedule and the way, you know, maybe the way you deal with subcontracts or preventative maintenance, like that all gets it gives you this common platform where you can you can now bake in, you know, all of these decades or you know, all of this knowledge gets baked into the ontology, but it's not visible to anybody else. It's not owned by anybody else. It's still you you're in control.

Robert: That's that is extremely interesting to me because it's it kind of breaks the mold of the whole, you know, I've got to go to my SaaS provider to help me figure out this problem. But yet You're seeing six you've seen obviously, I mean, your kind of a working use case of this is successful and you let people develop the tools that they need to solve their own problems. I think that's interesting, and and fascinating all at the same time because I think there's a lot of misnomer out there that thinks, you know, maybe construction companies can't do that kind of thing, but obviously that's not true.

Ryan: Well, and I think, you know, if if there's been one shift, it's the you're seeing our industry get more interested, in in understanding or more interested in this problem and and and there's now this kind of there's this vision or there's this thought where, you know what, maybe maybe this is finally the time where our industry can take back control of our tech. You know, we've While once again there's a lot of great solutions that have been developed, you know, off the shelf. You know, many of them started kind of in the same way, you know, with through a through a startup trying to solve a specific problem, who were then maybe forced to go to market because they need to generate revenue. But, you know, Who start you know, not nothing that we've seen has started kind of with the overarching vision of what does your long term, you know, ecosystem strategy look like? You know? And you need the you know, this the ontology provides this kind of this one common platform to do it all. So, you know, now that that's in our hands, you know, I think there's this especially with a lot of the clients we're working with, there's this optimism that, you know what, this is something where we can actually take back control. And we're not gonna be beholden to the these things that are off the shelf who are, you know, solving things in a silo or solving a unique problem but without the vision to look at the b at the bigger picture. So I I you know, there's this there's this sentiment that there's this momentum that's that's growing and that's happened through a lot of the you know, the lot of the public announcements and the companies that are are now jumping on board. So it's it's been it's been exciting.

Joe: I'll add one piece to that too, which is it's not, you know, control back from SaaS necessarily, it's control back to operations. So actually, you know, helping the people who do the work do the work more efficiently and give them the tools and empower them. This isn't for finance or HR or IT or anything. It's it's for the people actually, you know, paving the roads and doing the work, making their lives

Robert: Yeah.

Joe: easier.

Robert: S so do you get and so this is again, it's obviously no matter what you do, whether you're trying to do it through a SaaS solution or something, you're gonna need input from those from the people that need to help you provide solutions or kinda help you figure out what that solution is. Are you getting a little pushback or or is it maybe at first but You know, getting a little pushback on, hey, I've already got a lot to do. I don't I don't know how to program. I don't I don't know how to do any of this stuff. Like what does that look like when it comes to addressing these folks? I and it could be, you know, folks in payroll or folks in human resources or or whatever, right? What does that look like when you say, Okay, here it is. this is what we're we're doing. Like what kind of p what kind of feedback or pushback or whatever what are you getting from the folks?

Joe: I think the number one thing we try to, you know, say to those folks is and help them understand is the what problem are we trying to solve, not the how, because the how needs to evolve and breathe and we have this new tool where we're able to solve it, you know, in different ways than we have in the past. But ultimately to answer the question, it's to make the whatever they're doing easier and better than what they were doing before so that the adoption, you know, goes up.

Ryan: And it actually it can be, you know, it can be quite uncomfortable at first because we haven't really had to think about problems, you know, in in in this way in the past. You know, it's we've all been s we've all grown up in the industry and been so used to the way of doing things and when, you know, what a tool rollout looks like or what a software solution, you know, rollout looks like. So it's you know, the biggest one of the biggest challenges is to get people to change the way they're thinking about this problem, you know, and then start starting to you know build some trust in you know are we gonna actually be able to do what what we say we're gonna be able to do here you know so you know generating some early results or some proofs of concept And you know, getting people involved in a way that historically they they haven't been. You know, it's it's it's normally it's been like here's your tool, this is how you use it, here's all the tutorials, here's the implementation staff that came with the with the company with the license. It's it's it's it's a lot more in-depth than that. And there definitely there is there is some pushback at first. You know, everyone's too busy, to your point. You know, the the the labor shortage is real across the industry at all levels, and and it's trying to help people understand that like this is something worth making time for and you know you gotta find the people that want to solve the problem for themselves but help them understand that you're also gonna s solve it for your counterpart you know in the in the next site trailer or in the next cubicle or whatever it is but this is your chance to actually start to fix things

Joe: We've learned a lot about setting expectations too, which is you know, this is different from traditional SAS to Ryan's point where it's like here's the here's the one pager on how you do it and here's how you log in and you know here's how you use the tool. Well, you know, we're trying to give you know quality products, but the the MVP or the minimum viable products so that the end user can iterate it and you know make it bespoke to them and actually work the way they want it to work. So it's setting those expectations and helping people think bigger about, you know, what are you trying to solve? And how how great could this work if there were no constraints?

Robert: Yeah. Any any particular like unique success stories you can might be able to share, kind of from from early on of like we're rolling this thing out and and then it kinda even surprised you that the person that you kinda put in front of it, you know, came up with it?

Joe: I think the number one that surprised us was just rolling out our our field time capture through Kavanaugh Connect, we call it, but it's a field facing app, you know, in the employees' hands. And I remember thinking, you know, well, if you got eighty percent or ninety percent of people to adopt it, that would be great. You know, seventy, okay. We actually didn't know what to expect as far as adoption because it was, you know, this is you know, construction workers on their own personal device logging into Palantir Foundry. So nobody'd ever tried that at the scale, or at least that we know of at the scale we were trying to do it. So we were able to achieve like a ninety seven, ninety eight percent adoption rate. getting everybody to log in and you know the two three percent was folks with a flip phone or didn't have a phone or couldn't read the phone. It's like so it was quite rare that they didn't actually log in. And to Ryan's point, we we accomplished that by going to the field and meeting them where they were and bringing HR and IT and the development team to make sure that you know they knew their login and their password and their iTunes password and all the friction that you can imagine that comes from trying to log into a new app, especially you know, folks who you know may not want to have never tried to before, haven't older phone, it's we we you know, anticipated all those problems and met them where they were.

Robert: See you guys so your development team kind of developed the the product, the minimum viable product, and then kind of released it out. What kind of improvements did you make from the feedback from the field?

Joe: Lots. Long story short, lots. Like

Robert: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So yeah, I wanna hear about that.

Joe: Well, you know, every application that we develop, we we put a feedback button in. And so we learned a lot of what not to do's and, you know, how to set up permissions and just even how to develop, you know, a traditional application because we published it in the app store. so we learned a heck of a lot, but you know, received no shortage of feedback. So we put the feedback button in every application, but this one was, you know, it's going out to, you know, our entire workforce. So we were inundated with feedback tickets really quickly of, you know, suggestions and blockers and all the things. So Yeah, we were we learned pretty quickly.

Ryan: Yeah, and it's you know, it's getting the the right engagement. You know, if you're gonna deploy something at 80%, you know, because you want them to participate in that last in that last that last mile, that last twenty percent, they need to understand that they're getting an eighty percent tool. If the expectation is, you know, I'm getting something that's that's fully bug tested and bulletproof. Of course there's gonna be a gap, expectation versus reality, but that gap is is actually the opportunity that you can bake in your knowledge. And you know, there's there's you know, there's things that haven't gone well and it's like we gotta go back to the drawing board here because maybe the way we built it, the performance isn't there, or you know, it's in until you get it out in the field or get it into the user's hands, you don't really you don't really know. And and oftentimes you gotta at least build something that gives them the starting point. And sometimes that starting point is you know, is isn't the right direction. So it's a very iterative iterative process, but you know, that's something that that we got better at and a in a d our approach evolved over time.

Robert: Quick question on this to because I'm now you got me thinking about like the people required, you know what I mean, to kind of make this happen. you have a a development team. Obviously, you're gonna have an HR team already in place, maybe your payroll folks are already in place, those kind of things. But a lot of times construction companies don't have quote unquote development team, right? what they've got maybe may have an IT or person or two might have a staff of IT folks that solve problems. So these folks, they aren't developers, even th they may have some development knowledge. Did you guys go out and specifically find developers to kind of help you with this product?

Joe: Yeah, so through our journey we had Pounty or FTEs on site for a a solid year. but as we were building, we wanted to do more faster and also be able to be self sufficient. So we actually ramped up, you know, our development team over that year to where we're we're like 30 bodies now, 30 developers.

Robert: Wow.

Joe: but again, we didn't need 30 developers at the time to have an impact on the TCCL engagement. but yeah, we we ramped up over time to do more faster.

Ryan: Yeah, and I think it's once again it it really comes down to the the you know, the what the business is trying to solve. Because you can take you can take, you know, something like Foundry and apply it, you know, narrowly if you want. Like, hey, I I I'm feeling all the pain around labor force management. I want visibility, I'd I'm sick of this paper, I wanna I wanna kill it. but I want the flexibility to maybe do something in the same platform in the future. Maybe I'm gonna look at dispatch, but it's not gonna be tomorrow or next year. You know, so that requires a different level of call it like development capacity within your own company versus we're gonna take a really wide approach and we're gonna use this as a North Star vision setting, you know, statement we're gonna make as a company, like many have, you know, come out and done publicly recently, you know, that requires a different approach where you know what, you're probably gonna want some development capacity. You're probably gonna wanna stand up a team and deal with some of your change management. So It's really it's because it's because it can be applied so broadly, it really depends on what outcome you're looking for, because there is one hundred percent a scenario where you know you don't need any addition like you're gonna outsource the development, you're gonna roll it out, and it's you're gonna get it to scale and you're gonna be happy and you're gonna get you're gonna get the return you expected, but you're gonna stop there maybe for now. Or,

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: you know, we we you know We we see like people get a taste and it's really like I wan I want more, you know. and that's why, you know, you know, Palantir's been so successful. But some people need to see the results first before they make that bigger leap. And it one hundred percent can do that. so you're once again, you're in control.

Robert: Right. So is that kind of, you know, Cavtera's, you know, mission a little bit is to guide companies from where they are to where they need to be, kind of help them define those those places. Because again, you know, we talked about this last time. You go to those different conferences and you see 10,000 people looking around all trying to solve problems. Is that kind of where Cavtera came about?

Joe: Yeah, and I think that's, you know, that's one of our unique value propositions where, you know, we we we call it the Armageddon analogy, but we were you know, I I don't know if you I'm going off the rails here, but but I don't know if you've seen the two thousands movie Armageddon, where I remember watching

Robert: Absolutely.

Joe: it and thinking the big plot hole was how is it easier to take c oil drillers and make them astronauts than it is to take astronauts and make them oil drillers? But in this case You know, we've actually done that. We've taken the construction workers and made them software developers. And I think that's our unique value prop. And, you know, it helps us on these engagements and how to get folks to that change management because we've lived all these problems. And so, you know, the zero to one are helping people understand what is construction and how to tackle this, you know, digital transformation. That's our value unique value proposition.

Ryan: Yeah, and like where do I start? Like that's that's the really the simple question that many people like, hey, I'm I'm interested. I know AI's gotta be part of the future or hey, I saw this, you know, this keynote and I'm really interested in what in what Foundry can do. But like where where do I start? Is it dispatch? Is it equipment? Is it my labor force? Is it materials? You know, and that's it's guiding those kind of conversations, you know, and i is is my business ready? Do I have the right people in the right place to make a decision once I surface what I'm telling you is my my biggest pain. Like is there someone there to to change change the way we operate? Because ultimately you want to change change the way you operate is where you're really going to see the ROI.

Robert: I think you bring up a great point, Joe, when you talk about kind of that Armageddon analogy. I love that movie by the way. I've probably

Joe: Yeah.

Robert: watched it way too many times.

Ryan: Yeah.

Robert: I think it's probably easier to make an oil drill or an astronaut. I don't know, but you know. As long as they don't have to fly the rocket, whatever. But

Joe: That's right.

Robert: I think you bring up a good point in we we're entering an age where you're no longer just a construction worker anymore. especially

Joe: Yeah.

Robert: if you're gonna be using well, it doesn't matter what you're working on. You're gonna be utilizing technology in construction. You're no longer just a guy that's you know, you're well, you know, you're no longer just a carpenter installing doors or or, you know, an operator who is, you know, running a a bulldozer. You know, even bulldozers today, I mean, good lord, they've got GPS tracking, you know, all this satellite imagery stuff and all this stuff all over right? You've got to be equipped and you've got to be certified. I do think that's great for the industry because I think these are the folks that we need to be paying the most, you know, rather than, you know, lawyers and, you know, crypto kings. But I'm just you know, that's what I think. I think if you're gonna get into this industry, you can no longer look at it as well, it's just a it's all labor job, you know what I mean? I'm just gonna be sweating my ass off. Well, yeah, you're probably gonna doing that a little bit, but you're also gonna need to be a little bit savvy about how to work the technology as well.

Ryan: Well, a hundred percent and it's You know, I I saw I saw actually a great a great post recently. It was about a company down there down in in Texas, terra firma, who are tackling like robotics in the industry, which is great and it's exciting. I mean, so you you know, you have this huge range of, you know, early adopters of of you know, construction companies that are early adopters on the robotic side, and on the other end of the spectrum you have companies that are almost entirely still paper based, more so than anyone could possibly imagine. So, you know You know, one, it's trying to, you know, build solutions that can generate value for like these paper-based companies who are gonna get a benefit from like digitization and automation and you know, that means their staff is gonna be interacting with more tech. And then you got the really tech forward group that, you know, if you wanna leverage robotics, you know, ultimately, how are you managing and is your data unified? How are you gonna feed the robotics or the the equipment, the information to go and actually execute on the plan? Well, where's the plan coming from? Where are the requirements?

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Ryan: You know, where's your scheduling coming from? So it's you know it's there there's just there's a there's a huge there's a huge range, but I mean I think the commonality is the ontology provides you with the opportunity to get as as technical or you know maybe you're somewhere in the middle ground as as you're ready for or as you're you're needed today.

Robert: I think that Terraforma group, don't quote me on this, but I think they're working with Zachary on Zachary construction on some. I I did an interview with Rachel from Zachary from EN at ENR's future tech. she was telling me about a group. It it may not be that same group, but they were working on again heavy civil heavy civil vehicles, right, that are autonomous. Their engineers were from Waymo, and they got into, you know, civil and they said that you know, this is something they need. And and I agreed, you know, she was it was funny she was talking about, we're not trying to replace operators, we just don't want them doing dump runs, you know? And

Ryan: Yeah.

Robert: I think that's again, there's so much in that to kind of unpack a little bit where you go. Yeah, that's kinda right. You want doing the hard stuff, the stuff that it really takes humans to do. Otherwise, you know, you know, I can make a dump run. I you know, I you know.

Ryan: Well that that's it. It's just it's getting, you know, you want you want your your best drivers and your best operators doing their highest and best use. Maybe not the you know, the the the run of the mill, like the the mundane activities that one ar aren't exciting and aren't really enticing people in our into our industry, and two, we have a we have a net deficit of of people that are willing or able to do those jobs, you know. So I think it's it's complementary, not you know, not replacing by any means.

Robert: Do you guys think you s we're seeing a shift? gonna start to see this this you know the the curve's gonna start going up here with interest in construction just due to you know not only meeting more people but also working with tech in construction is becoming more prevalent.

Joe: think so and hopefully you know we can have an impact just by making the quality of people's lives in construction better. Because I know, you know, Ryan could probably attest the same thing. Coming up through the construction company, the lack of tools and the frustration that comes with running construction jobs day to day, you know, I've I've seen it push people out of the industry. So hopefully we can have an impact on you know helping attract folks, not just from a technical side but also just in the quality of life by solving some of these problems.

Robert: I every contact founder I have interviewed lately, they come from the field and they're like, yeah, I the only reason I started is because I had no tools to do the simplest of things. And it's so strange to hear that because I'm like, Well, wait a minute, I interview, you know at least two, three people a week, or I talk to v you know, contact founders who are doing the exact same thing, right? They've but they've found this and they're all sitting there trying to solve these problems and they keep coming out of this industry. They're like brand new. They've been out of the industry for two, three years. And I'm like, mean they're still doing that. They're still doing this paperwork thing where it's it's not quite right or And and I was like, these were problems that I was trying to solve with my own company, you know, years ago. And we're still doing the same things. We're still making the same mistakes. It just is that just a human thing?

Ryan: I you know what? And I I think to your point, I think there's like the the app like the demographic of people actually carrying out the work has has changed and one hundred percent they're more tech interested, tech capable than ever before. And some of the tools are trying to catch up. But I I saw it was I saw another like kind of construction tech influencer. I'm gonna quote him, but he was like he made some statement and it was like Why does it feel like the Jetsons at home and the Flintstones at work? You know, so like we're using more tech now at home

Joe: Good one.

Ryan: and getting to work. And then you walk into the office into the site trailer and it's the paper drawings and the paper time cards and the packing slips being handed back and forth. It's like rewind the clock twenty years and you might not be able to you squint and not know the difference of of what area you're working in construction, right?

Robert: You you definitely wouldn't know the difference. I mean, I've been on some site trailers, very, very large companies, and it's to your point, I'm looking around, I'm looking at paper cards and you know, paper plans and all these things that are, you know, hanging around going, Wh am I back in nineteen eighty nine? You know, w where am I?

Ryan: Yeah, I mean and that's I think that you know the the the differentiator now is it's not we're not talking about, you know, one tool that solves one problem. I know like when Bim, you know, BIM came around like it was gonna be the thing. But the thing is is once again it's kinda siloed. They like maybe it's gonna solve some problem and add some value and and and But there's we're talking about the bigger picture now, the entire construction technology ecosystem, holistically. And I think that's why the conversation's different now.

Joe: We've you know, we've

Robert: Yeah, I think

Joe: never had a you know, we've never had a data problem. Even in the last twenty years, we've had no shortage of softwares and data and reports and dashboards and spreadsheets and disparate softwares. The problem we're now able to solve is the assimilation of that data and bringing it into one place. So you can actually make the decisions you want. Like we used to always say, you know, within the organization everybody knows everything, but it's just not organized or available. And that's the major shift that's happened.

Robert: Yeah. Yeah. And we're still seeing that same there there's still a h a a mountain decline there. because I don't think people ki kind of to the point of BIM, right? BIM at one point was supposed to be the single source of truth. and it was supposed to be the end all beat all of construction and we're gonna find out all the problems that we've got in construction before we ever build anything, right? I'm gonna see where this is and then and then the minute, you know, the v the minute they run into a problem, everybody stops. And they go, screw this, we're going back to the old way. You know what I mean? This thing doesn't work. You know, let's throw this thing away. it was kind of like I'm gonna date myself, but you know, when lasers first became job site tools, right?

Ryan: Yeah.

Robert: Well somebody didn't read the fine print on the laser at the time when it w told you that, by the way, this could be out an eighth of an inch and twenty feet. Well, I'm telling you. When you're building a hundred foot wall, you don't you don't want that, right? You

Ryan: Yeah.

Robert: you've got to you know and and I I remember specifically a l this is one of my favorite stories. my my supervisor, my foreman on the job, I was young just a young buck and this guy this guy's name's Brad. I'm not gonna say his last name, I'm not gonna disparage him, but just salty, you know, salty old guy. And we were using those I remember those yellow block lasers and they they were the kind of the first ones to come out. I think they were like five, six hundred dollars apiece. They might have been a thousand dollars apiece when they first came out, those PL lasers or whatever they were. So

Ryan: Yeah.

Robert: we were we were doing a long line of windows on the outside of a of a building and framing for new glazing to come in and new windows to come in on this. And so we had set up the laser and we were making sure all the frames were nice and level across the way. Sure enough, that sign of a gun was out three sixteenths of an inch and in twenty feet. And he threw that thing out a three story window and we watched it crash into the street. And I

Ryan: No.

Robert: was like And we used a four foot or we use an eight foot level from from now, you know, plump bobs and eight foot levels. It was crazy. But

Ryan: Well, you know, what you're describing is like I d and I don't think you know, I don't think we get around this easily in in any way is is with any new technology or any new approach, like we gotta you gotta get unc you gotta get uncomfortable. You know, you gotta abandon the way you did s the way the way you the way you did things previously, you gotta abandon that at some point. And frankly that's that's human that's a human thing. That's a it's uncomfortable to do that. You know, but

Robert: Yeah. Well, but you still gotta check your work, right? and this is the you know, the idea about, you know, AI and and utilizing the ability to aggregate all that information, right? Because that's kind of what it is. It's like up until now we haven't had the ability to put somebody or something in charge of I want you to look here, here, and here. But you do, you still have to go back and go, did you look? Here, here, and here, especially you know, right now. again, it gets to the eighty percent where you're great with eighty percent, but you still need to go back. There needs to be some checks and balances in these systems. Are you finding that, you know, fo Foundry has those checks and balances for your for your clients or for yourself? Or is it something that you guys put into the the method of operation at at any point?

Joe: Yeah, I think, you know, as we build the plane while we fly it, we're we're constantly checking against or checking your work against the other results. You know what I mean? So you're still matching the schemas, you're still trying to produce the same reports in the meantime as you build the plane while you fly it, while also, you know, venturing into this new world of different reporting and thinking about it differently. So it's actually you've got both worlds combined together right now. Kind of a abstract answer, but I think you think I made sense.

Ryan: Yeah, and I think the the platform allows you to visualize how like the data is moving in the pipeline. So for someone that's non-technical like myself and I'm in a workshop and I wanna see, you know, what's what's the source of this information, why am I getting an output that I that I know is wrong, just based on my professional experience. You know, so to be able to diagnose that and go and find the kind of the root cause is is easier than than ever. Like it's it's different than looking at two or three pages of code. I'm not a I'm not a programmer, so that's not gonna be helpful to me. So, you know, allowing the the subject matter experts to participate in in diagnosing, but this is something you need to consciously do as well. Like you need a means to go and validate. Just like you do when everyone uses their favorite LM. Every once in a while it does something Where did where did I come up with that? Like it can't do math all of a

Robert: yeah.

Ryan: sudden, you know? so you need a way to validate that. So

Joe: One of the cool things Foundry does though is when you're using AI tools, it'll actually show you how it came to that answer. So it'll show the thinking and show the logic, though show the underlying objects and how it derived it and the math. And so it they do make it pretty easy to check your work when using LMs and stuff like that.

Robert: Yeah. Well, I think we definitely need that. do you think the industry just again, this is gonna be a a kind of a just a personal view from you guys, do you think the industry is ready, ready for this or are we still we still kind of I don't know. We're still a little bit too antiquated.

Ryan: I think I think we're more ready than than in than we ever have been. I mean, I think the, you know, we gotta look at the positive side once again of the demographic change. you know, we've got to look at, you know, the companies that have s put their hand up and said, you know what, we're gonna we're gonna tackle this head on, we're gonna be vocal about it. You know, of course Thomas Kavanaugh was one. You've seen McCarthy with their announcement. You've seen, you know, Clear Construction down in down in Texas just announce. And there's a lot of others that haven't, but you know, we're getting out of the you know the the wind I think this is the period where the wait and see crowd is gonna start getting a little nervous because now there's bigger and bigger players going public with, you know, what this is a problem worth tackling. And the more people that are willing to stand up and talk about that and that they're actively doing that, I think that's what's gonna get the rest of our industry ready. You know, because we're, you know, no matter how you unpack it, our industry has historically been laggards, and you know, we didn't want to be the first one through the gate, but I think I think that's Sentiment's starting to change. And I think, you know, AI has been around for a couple of years now, and it hasn't been obvious how it could benefit anybody and the way it works off the shelf or just logging into the provider's platform. So, you know, it's getting down to the root cause of these problems. I think the appetite's there to do that so we can mobilize this tech for our industry.

Robert: Joe, what do you think about foundry for the kind of s midsize or small to midsize operator? Do we do you think that's something that these folks should be looking at to kind of level up their game if they're looking to kind of move into that next market? Do we do we think that that's something they should be looking at?

Joe: I think the way we differentiate it is if you feel the diseconomies of scale and the frustration and the silo datas and systems and tools, then you're a good foundry candidate.

Robert: Well, that's everybody. So everybody's

Joe: Yeah.

Robert: a good everybody's a good candidate.

Ryan: Well, a good a good I gotta a good check and balance is like there's a certain scale for many business like founders where th they the they the their business can still fit in their head. You know, they still remember every piece of equipment they have, every active job. You know, they they know the the exclusions in every contract, like, you know, and that's that's you know, those passionate people got into the the b the bi the business for 'cause they were you know, 'cause they had that that capacity. But w when you scale beyond that, you you need tools, right? So

Joe: Yeah, and the way we, you know, we'll say it's simply like,

Robert: Well, if you want to be able to hand off

Joe: you know, a hairdresser doesn't need foundry, a single hairdresser cutting hair. You know, a 30-person HVAC company can probably use service tighten and they're probably craving that structure and they they like the way it works. But you know, the second you you scale up to Rhymes Point past that and you really start to feel the pain and diseconomies of scale, that's when you start to really need found.

Robert: Well yeah, I think and that I think that's the important thing, you know, to Ryan's point was that, you know, you've got those owners and operators out there, you know, guys that could quote you everything on a job that they ever had or ever did and those are exceptions to the rule, but those guys can't leave. They they're they're stuck there, you know. And I hate to say it's guys like me, you know, I've old guys who's got their own company, I know everything about everything for my company and they're like but I'm maybe just too afraid to let it go. I'm probably not a good candidate for it.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Robert: Even though even though I probably should 'cause then you would be able to pass down, quite honestly, pass down that workflow and pass down that information to the next generation that can then, you know, make you that kind of legacy or or, you know, that company that has a fifty year, a hundred year run. Right, from now on. you gotta be able to pass that information down.

Joe: Yeah, and you touched on something we have like I have a funny story about this, which is we named our operating system at Kavanaugh Construction Total Operations Management, or Tom

Robert: Yeah.

Joe: for short, and the founder is Tom Kavanaugh, of course. And, you know, I I used to joke that I was out on the well, I was, I was out on the highway, you know, this was twenty twelve or thirteen. I was a grade man using a GPS on the side of the road, and I just sat down to eat my sandwich and you know, eat my lunch. So I leaned up against the barrier wall, popped open my cooler and grabbed my sandwich, and you know, a white Volkswagen flew by honking the horn. kind of saying, Get back to work. and it was Tom Kavanaugh. So I joked, you know, back then, you know, even at a hundred and twenty kilometers an hour he still knew what was going on the job site. And so that's why we named the system after him, so that, you know, we could still at scale understand what's going on the job site every day.

Robert: Right. That's awesome. Yeah. Speaking of getting back to work, guys, you know, it's just it's the it's that time. And I have enjoyed spending a few hours with you guys in the past couple weeks and enjoyed getting to know y'all a little bit better and and definitely enjoyed getting to know more about Foundry and and and Palantir and kind of what it does. And it's not so much of a black box anymore. And I'm hoping that people can understand like it has real value and maybe they should take a look at it. So I wanna thank you guys for your time. I I know y'all are real real busy.

Joe: Thank you. Really enjoyed it.

Ryan: Yeah, no. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Rob.

Robert: Well guys, that's it. We're gonna wrap this one up. that's the Contech Exec and that is you know the episodes on Palantir and Foundry. Thanks, Joe and Ryan, for being here. I will invite everybody you know, send us your feedback on this and ask us your questions. I will certainly forward them on to Joe and Ryan. We want to know what y'all are thinking. but I will ask you to take kind of what the the Palantir challenge is like are you really willing to define your own business honestly? Because that's probably what it's going to take for you to get into something like Foundry. I hope you'll take that challenge. I hope you'll contact Joe and Ryan if you need some help. And the folks at Caftera are there for you. But until next time, y'all stay safe out there and stay tuned for the next few episodes. We've got more coming up.