Sh*t Rolls Downhill. That's Your Whole Bid Process.

Robert: Well, welcome everybody back at the Contech Exec Podcast. Today I've got Viyas from Stack with me. I'm just gonna let him I'm just gonna hand it over to because I I just how did you get into this crazy little world of construction tech? Just kinda give us a little bit of background so everybody knows who you are, just starting this thing off.

Viyas: Sure, appreciate it. Well, first of all, thank you for having me, Robert. Excited to be here. I started my world in construction tech and a probably a path very a lot of people might r might have similarities to, is the son of two amazing immigrant parents when I they came here to the States and when it came time for them to build their dream home, they decided to to build it themselves and I became the cheap labor for that job site very quickly. So the as but it's sort of That became the beginning of me learning the construction trade and s subsequently becoming a real estate developer, an investor, where I was an active part in the construction side of it. That continued on throughout my life and have a small development company on the side where we really do more historic restorations now than anything else and fun projects. but about five years ago, my My day job was really in the technology side of the world and the technology side of the world, I've become a sort of a growth hacker for platforms and software. Formerly software as a service, now platforms as a service. and about five years ago I became the CEO of Go Canvas, which is my entry point entry point of connecting construction tech or construction into construction tech, where we became the leading provider of safety and job quality solutions in the marketplace and ultimately got acquired by Bluebeam. candidaty, this is all my side hustle. My primary occupation is butler to my 13-year-old and nine-year-old daughters and wife. and I bring that up because what's interesting is they have no idea how daddy quote unquote makes money or is or makes things happen in this platform as a service world, but they know what daddy does in the world of construction because it's tangible, it's physical, and they can sort of see a build go from point A to point B. So that's how. I got from there. And then recently as we sold Blue a Go Canvas to Blue Beam and I was the executive growth officer at Blue Beam for a couple of years at an emochec group, I recently joined as the CEO of Stack Construction Technology and we're leading the the cutting edge of takeoff estimation pre construction software solutions for the for the trades actually.

Robert: All right. Well, I you know, every kind of that similar journey, right? The the construction part is a tangible, tangible feat, but it doesn't s it doesn't doesn't go anywhere unless you get to the part where where I kind of come in was the thing that I'm always kind of, you know, banging the drum on, which is kind of that planning stage. We've got to plan better. part of that, does go with this pre construction. Now I I always say pre construction is pretty broad term and we throw it around a lot, like it's supposed to mean something. but it really doesn't. It's it's it's far too far too broad to kind of cover everything and we sh really should break it down. Now stack is covering takeoffs, right? helping out with estimation. and then w what else do you have is there there's a build feature in in this? What's what's going on with this? Kind of explain where that's at, where stack is.

Viyas: Great question, Robert. Yes, takeoff and estimation, which in my opinion in the world of AI has now blurred together, right? There are people that play in one side or the other. In my opinion,

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Viyas: they've now been connected together. So takeoff and estimate estimation sort of comes together. And then we also have a build and operate component to it, sp which is basically a project management repository for the trades. So think about Procore. Procore is a fantastic partner of ours, more focused on the general contractor side of it. We are a repository for a trade to maintain their change orders, their annotations, their markups, et cetera, while they're working with whatever GC is in the market.

Robert: Okay. So where does scope fit in with this? Because quite honestly, when I was into commercial construction, you know, while I was doing a bid and takeoff and all of these things, I would be thinking about, I see this coming into the into play here. I I know we need to bid it, but there's there's some things surrounding it as far as scope comes in that says, Hey, this may not work. Or if we're going to make this work, and it's and it's not critical path stuff. It's it's build. It is how do you get it into the room? One of my famous examples is this one. We were building a very, very large restaurant build. the guy was a award-winning chef here in Dallas and taking over what is wanting to take over. So we got five thousand, six thousand square foot space for his you know And the problem was in downtown Dallas, what they wanted you to do is they said if you're going to be doing what you're doing, because he wanted like a wood burning type of stove, right? where it would, you know he wanted to cook with wood. Well, they're worried about, you know, creosoap buildup, they're worried about the the fumes, all that kind of stuff. So we needed a scrubber. And I said, Well, scrubbers are pretty big, you know. And I'm looking at this space, I'm like, where do you want to put the scrubber? So they, you know, they they the architect walks me down to this room and he says, right in here. And it's like, first of all, it's all concrete walls all the way around, concrete ceiling, because it's underneath like this, there's a parking garage part over the space. And I'm like, I'm taking a look around. I'm like, So what you plan on getting it in here? You know? I said, I'll build I'll bid you a scrubber all day long. I just want to know if you're prepared to expend the money that's going to take to take the thing apart and then haul it into the room and put it all back together, you know, in this space. I said and so this this is kind of what I get to thinking about the the broad terms of pre-construction, estimating, take offs, those types of things. It's not that we don't know what goes into the building. It's how do we build it?

Viyas: Robert, I could not agree with you more. If I had a dollar for every time I was on a job site and the architect had this design, and then all of a sudden where an HBAC conduit is supposed to go is actually a joist, and it's just not going to work there, right? The like so let's let's

Robert: Yeah. Yeah, been there.

Viyas: they've been there, you've been there many times, right? And your scrubber example is an even more complicated version of that. If we think about the traditional, and this is where I get really excited because I do think the new p paradigm that we are in is changing the game completely. But traditionally, the way it worked is an owner or a developer, whoever's paying for the project, starts, hires an architect, and they come up with this amazing design they get really excited about. And then that design then gets sent to a GC, and the GC bids it out to the trades. But in the spirit of being appropriate on this call, Stuff rolls downhill in that configuration, right? It's like sweet.

Robert: yeah, shit rolls downhill, man. Don't worry. We we have we have you have carte blanche. Is it all good?

Viyas: All right. Shit rolls downhill in that conversation, right? And ultimately the GC and the trades person is the person responsible for making it a reality. But what's happened is because that funnel goes down and all that shit just rolls downhill, we've never gotten the feedback loop because all of the insights, all of the knowledge of how that design actually turned into that 6,000 square foot restaurant. with that scrubber and that wood fire grill gets lost on the job site because the only people that have that insight and knowledge that is super valuable are the tradespeople and maybe the GC in that conversation, right? So I think that where we are in the world now, especially with the advent of AI, is how do you sort of take that takeoff and estimation data and ultimately create a repository from all of that information from all the prior projects so that ultimately we can find a way for the trades to get more empowerment in this conversation and give feedback back to the architect blueprint designer because now this is where I get so excited. The trades, in my opinion, it's no longer trade work. They're trade catalysts. Because they are going into, I always talk this a dirty and dangerous space, right? Because typically it's either plot of land or it's a shell space, like you said, but they gotta turn into some place where you're having amazing, whatever, Chicago style pizza. The reality around that is that there is so much data and insights that's being generated at the point that that dirt or that concrete is being turned to something tangible and usable, that how we get those insights and knowledge encapsulated, processed algorithmically algorithmically, excuse me, and automatically routed back to an architect, a developer, so we can sort of change that shit going downhill funnel into a virtuous circle loop of insights and information. And my personal passion is how do we use that to re empower the trades, to be candidly, in my point, one of the most important parts of that life cycle.

Robert: Yeah, well I totally agree with you. I mean I don't know if it's the contract structure that starts this mechanism moving forward. Because most of the time what happens, you know, owner engages a G C gets two weeks, three weeks to bid this crazy, you know, thing. they have very little or kind of zero contact at that at that point with the architect to really I mean, most RFIs, I think, really should be answered before you ever bid the job.

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: simply because how can you put a number when there's so many questions and so many gaps still left in the whole picture? And what I'll say to you is the AI and the the age of AI as they call it, does give us the ability to start to recognize where those gaps are before we get there, right? But it goes back to that whole thing of of we're still not getting enough information to really do a great job. So I I blame our contract structure for how we got here because by the time I send it out for bid, maybe those guys have two or three days, maybe they have a week to finish so some bid up. And I it depends on the scale of the project, right? how much time they have. But scale is relative here. I mean, if you're look working on a large complex, you know, capital project, you know, maybe you only have two months, but maybe that's not enough when you start to consider all of the elements and all the planning that's really required at the trade level. And so by the time you get it back, sometimes they wait. I know I've been on the trade side of the world where I'm gonna wait because I don't want to get, you know, I don't want to be last, I don't want to be first bid in.

Viyas: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Robert: Right. 'Cause if you're first, you're probably last.

Viyas: Yeah. Yep.

Robert: You're gonna you're gonna get somebody's gonna leak your info whatever. But we're living in that I think we've created our own problems in that area where it's like maybe the contract needs to change up so that we're we are doing what you're talking about, getting the trade input before we get to this whole, you know, the before we get to the bid process. Can it be built? Is there feasibility There's the first line of you know, and then maybe the contract of well, these guys had a better idea, their price was this much, I think we should put this in, right? I I I really feel like it starts there. I would interested in your opinion.

Viyas: You know, I couldn't agree with you more, but I think it goes a little bit broader than that in my opinion. So when you started your carpentry career, I am guessing that you were very good at carpentry because the items that you're building are sort of very have there's some precision involved. I am going to go on a limb and say that your Excel skills were not the reason that you were a great carpenter. Is that a fair statement? You and I are

Robert: Yeah, I didn't have any.

Viyas: Probably around the same age, so Excel was probably we were probably in Windows 3-1 at that point in time, maybe even DOS. Yep.

Robert: yeah, yeah. It was not something I was engaging with. Let's just put it this way.

Viyas: So I I call that out because at the end of the day, in my opinion, our tradespeople are in the business of not bidding. They're in the business of getting shit done. Right? That's the reality. So if I think about it from a tradesperson standpoint, there's two big pieces into every project, right? Labor and materials. Those are the two fundamentals of every project, right? Now, in the bidding process, what's being forced upon our trades is that to your point, this RFI should have been pr pr and submitted before they even get the bid request. And they're going through the bid request, and then this whole game, sorry, dating, like I'm I'm I'm out of date on dating because I've been married for almost 20 years at this point. But the the whole like, do I go in first? Do I go in last? And there's all these calculations and things that are in it. I think where we are in the world is that there's so much of that time, and I think you've said time multiple times, which is exactly accurate, of what it takes to go in and put in that bid and get that insight in there. That how do we use AI and this new paradigm that we're in? I don't want to keep using the term, just technology. I want to be broader, to automate as much of this process. Cause even doing a takeoff, a takeoff was very different ten years ago than it is now, right? I would literally be measuring rooms with a tape measure. Now Literally I push a button in stack, it scans a blueprint, automatically tells me the takeoff, as well as the estimate based off of whatever items and assemblies I've programmed in there. So how do we use technology to automate as much of that in a world, at least the trades that I work with, as long as the materials are within like two, three, four percent of each other, they're gonna use a supplier and the material folks that help them get shit done. So knowing that that also is a world of AI. Like, how do you use AI to sort of help optimize the materials portion of the conversation? So a trade can focus on delivering what they do best, which is the quality and the time of the project. You remember the old triangle: time, quality, and cost that we tell every client all the time. So, in a world of our trades can help deliver the time and quality best, how do we use technology to automate as much of that bid process so that they're their credentials and their qualifications on the time and quality part are what go into that bid process. And maybe even to your point, that changes the contract dynamic because it's easier to bid on projects that you can focus now on giving a feedback loop alongside that. But to your point, the architect and the GC have to be open to that conversation. And in theory, the automation should give them more bandwidth to process that feedback loop is the hope.

Robert: Yeah. So you you mentioned something interesting before we started the before we pressed the record button, you and I had a nice little conversation, just we were kind of tangenting off, but you mentioned something very important, which you talk about workflows. and I think this kind of folds into that. When we start talking about automating processes, right, we're all aud we're automating workflows, right? And so it is that It is the nuanced effect of saying, okay, how do you automate a workflow? How do you code a workflow so that tech now becomes the leading edge of that workflow instead of the the manual You know, I I'm using tech but I'm using it very manually to kind of just store information. Where is that transition happening where tech then becomes that leading edge that says, Okay, I've got the data, I've got this, this is what we need to do here, here and here.

Viyas: I think it's that's a great question, by the way. I don't think that we were ready for this conversation until the past two years, to be honest. And my argument for that is going back to the Excel conversation. Like you tr if you tried to put a gun to my head to create a macro and a pivot table in Excel right now, I'd probably tell you, you know, this this this ain't gonna work.

Robert: Yeah.

Viyas: we are in a world now where as we think about the labor pool and whether it is veterans like you and I, or if it's someone that is literally like on the board of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. Like if it is someone coming out of a BGCA Clubhouse that's interested in entering the trades. I think we are in a world now where they don't have to learn. There's not the steep learning curve that you and I had about how technology works in order to enable it in that workflow. We are now in a world where a button or a command prompt with it you just type in the question or the outcome that you want automatically processes all the technical the technical know-how on the other side of it. So now the next generation of construction labor doesn't need to know how to do a macro or a pivot table in Excel. They can literally put it into a construction and I'm sorry, into a command prompt. I think that becomes step one, right? Of taking the onus off of our tradespeople from being technologists into being the people that get shit done by giving them the tools to do that without having to learn how the technology works. Because that's why we became carpenters, electricians, plumbers, whatever it might be. I think first enabling a custom a client or a tradesperson, I should say, to do that so they can actually then use an automated workflow to process their portion, por process their bid or their RFI or even the change orders and all the annotations they're doing. I think it first starts with making the technology easily usable, which I think the last two years has now done. Now, the trick in front of us, this is something I'm very passionate about if we gotta separate the frauds from the real people that are providing value for our tradespeople. Because everyone uses AI as a buzzword now. It's now gotta be applicable in context of great, we're gonna so one is ease of use, right? The second is it's gotta be real. It's gotta be real and generating the value for a tradesperson. So I think about pre-construction, especially in the takeoff and estimation world, everyone can talk about, yeah, push a button AI, it scans a blueprint, automatically takes you to take off estimation. But if that takeoff is off and isn't accurate, worst case, or say best case, I don't get the bid. Worst case, I get the bid, and I'm losing my rear on the other side of that. So this is where like it can't be a buzzword. Accuracy and precision have to come through the workflow as well. And I think that we're still in the kind of nascent stage of that. I'm excited, like it's not only stack, there are a lot of great players in the construction space that are built by construction folks. That are focused on the accuracy and the precision part of the technology. So in my mind, it's gotta be an ease of use, getting us out of the world of figuring out how the technology works. But if we're gonna have trust and faith in the technology, it's gotta be precise and accurate, fulfill the need of that tradesperson.

Robert: I think there's a there's a push or there was a push at some time where we feel like technology only belongs in the office.

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: and it's i again, I think maybe it's misplaced. and I do agree with you, we feel like we put this AI label on the outside of the package and it's suddenly that's supposed to be impressive. But you get feedback from clients, you get feedback from the industry itself and they say, That's not impressive. Just because you have AI in a project, I mean, okay, great, it could just be a chat bot. Doesn't really matter. what does it do? You know, how does it help? And then But again, there was this weird this this weird transition I feel like we're making where you've got the office folks are the only ones communicating what needs what they need. And I feel like the trades, the actual builders over here, don't get an opportunity to to talk to the the technologist, the people creating that what's supposed to be helping them, to really say, Yeah, no, that's not that's really not what we need. I don't need something to generate another report. Right? That's not what I need. What I need is whatever this is, right? and I feel like we might be hopefully I feel like we're coming out of that stage where we're actually getting, you know, con construction technologists who actually understand that the real meat of the problem is out there in the field. You know?

Viyas: Could not agree with you more, Robert. And I think that there's a bunch of friction points historically that I think that we're now starting to overcome. I think one, you're exactly right. And I this goes back to your contract vehicle portion, right? Everything happened in the office. And even in the world, like you think about when we were started in the business, like maybe there was like a Gateway 2000 PC best case, or maybe even a Commodore 64. I don't know what was in the office at that point in time. But now We are in a world where technology is much more ubiquitous, right? Mobile phones, iPads, you name it out there. That how do we sort of a change the construct? By the way, the c the contract the the the contract construct also sort of drives that. Office is sort of like ground control. But the reality is, com the ground zero is actually on the job site. So how do you A connect the field and sort of get communication flowing? And I think that's where mobile tech has made large advancements. But I think the second piece of this is And it goes all the way to financial institutions in my mind, and this is me being radically candid, is when I came on to when I came to Go Canvas and to Stack, their notion of in the technology space, there's this whole notion of recurring revenue, right? Every month you need to have recurring revenue, and that's sort of what why platform companies get valued so much. But the thing is that when they sort of went to that, everyone immediately sort of got excited by the people that have an office and an admin that's overseeing a project because That person every day, day in and day out, is in front of that computer doing takeoff or estimates or doing job site control, that they are a recurring revenue customer on behalf of whatever platform is out there. But the lion's share of our trades don't have an office admin that's doing bids takeoff. They are probably doing a bid, a takeoff or an estimate, and then hopping on a truck at 6 a.m. to go to the job site that they just are already under contract to do before they go and win the bid on the next one. And In the world of sort of getting shit done, that's what they're in. They're not in the world of sitting in front of a desktop. So I think there's a couple of things. A, how do you make tech the tech more mobile enabled so that the job site becomes ground zero for information and comes back to the office? But two, how do we not put a scarlet A for all intents and purposes on the one, two, three user small business tradespeople? Because technology is built for the office. How do we make technology easier for them to use and embrace that they are going to be sometimes in front of a computer, sometimes on the job site? And whether that's how the technology works or even the financial construct of how we value their usage of our platform, all have to, in my mind, get readjusted for this new world. And I think that that's the two areas. Access to the field through the actual technology and rethinking the framework of our customers aren't doing their actual job. at a desk. They're doing it on a job site.

Robert: Love that idea, and I talked about this to some other folks about kind of that underserved market. everybody wants to pitch to the whale.

Viyas: Yes.

Robert: you know, I mean and maybe the product works with the whale, maybe it doesn't. But there's this And I don't know if the percentage is right, but I would say, you know, may is it seventy percent of the of the construction market is really kind of mid to small level contractors.

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: And I think you make a good point. Like, I know a mid to small level contractor, he's not gonna be sitting at his desk all day, you know, he does probably doesn't go play golf, probably doesn't get to do any of those things. Matter of fact, he's probably working twelve a day

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: and and barely getting to spend enough time you know, with the family and and doing

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: the things that, you know, that he'd really w rather do. When is technology going to stop creating more for us to do and start taking over start taking over some of the things truly being an automated tool? 'cause I think that's that's seventy percent of the population's the way that they look at it is yeah, I don't need another piece of technology in my stack because it just adds more stuff that I need to do.

Viyas: Not agree with you more is I think that we've really lost sight that the fact and I would make the argument it's probably north of 80 percent of the actual trades are SMBs, right? That ultimately are powering larger contractors or whatnot. But the reality is that person at the end of the day is there to provide for their family. Maybe some, and that's what that's the beauty of the American dream. If you decide, you know what. I'm gonna continue to crush it. I want to scale, and I want to become a much larger fortune 2000, 1000 provider. Great. Good on you. We that's the beauty of our country. We allow the ability to do that. But some people, they just want to provide for their family, right? And there's nothing wrong with that either. That is great. Like amazing carpenter. Everyone's trying to find that balance, exactly.

Robert: Yeah. They're everybody's trying to find that balance, right? They're trying to find that balance. Yeah.

Viyas: And I think that that's where we are at the point now where AI. Is really automating all the algorithmic functions. Anything that's formulaic, algorithmic, those items that where where there's enough data points to be processed, it's automating that. I think that we're in we're crossing that chasm now, right? I read this article the other day about all these AI billionaires. These AI billionaires that are out there, they're it's a world where I'm still con still tr monitoring how we're bridging the gap of making that AI world actually applicable to the trades. This goes back to the precision and accuracy conversation we're having earlier. I think that we're getting there quickly because I'll tell you that what we're seeing through Stack is the R and D side has evolved so quickly. We are releasing so many features, our customers are actually saying, Uncle, you're releasing too much, slow it down a little bit. That I think now it's about okay, how do we harness this superpower that's out there, though that's algorithmic, formulaic function, and use it to create value in technology that helps that small trades I'm sorry. That SMB tradesperson, not add to their stack, but make their stack more easy to use. And I think that's where we have to start seeing more technology that is purpose built for the trades. And I'm sorry, I keep calling out the trades. It's no disrespect to the general contractors, but there is a different role they play in the value chain. So I think we have to figure out how we continue to ensure that technology is purpose built for the trades to narrow that stack. And you're seeing it on the white collar side. You look at sales enablement tools, like there's all these tools like Salesforce and Gong. You're seeing massive consolidation in that space. That stack has been is getting consolidated every day. There's no reason that we shouldn't do that on behalf of the trades, but we got to start from a use case of what is it that trades actually need, the ones that are on the job site versus the one that's in the office, because it's two different use cases that a tradesperson is overlapping. And that's where I think the onus is on the technologists. to make sure that we solve for that Venn diagram where it's useful for what's in the job site, also useful for what's in the office, because if we do our job right, that s one, two, three user tradesperson is doing their office work while they're on a job site. And I think that's where we are on the route to getting we're we're on the journey to get there.

Robert: Yeah, is that what your build and operate field tech is? Is that what you've got going on? I

Viyas: That is, like that's our intention. Our intention is to use that essentially as our quote unquote drop box for the trades, right? This is where you keep all of your project work. So you're gonna do all your bids, you're gonna do your takeoff and estimation much more easily. You can do it from an iPad, literally push of a button and get that done. And by the way, you can this is where the beauty of our us having over fifteen thousand customers that are inside our platform, we have so many learnings from them. That are the intentionality is how do we leverage those learnings to figure out, okay, what is the best items and assemblies configuration for the type of project that you're using? And you and we help share that information with you, obviously being respectful of the client's privacy and whatnot. So it's how do we automate as much of that? So while that carpenter is on site framing that that commercial project, they're actually spending five minutes on their iPad in between sessions of a hammer and a nail to actually do a takeoff and an estimation and ultimately. a project bid in a matter of minutes. That's the goal. Well that's not the goal. That's where we're at right now.

Robert: That's where we're at.

Viyas: It is. Now I will say the area that I'm constantly putting pressure on our team is the accuracy and and precision portion. We are the most accurate and precise in my opinion in the world. Actually not in my opinion, statistically, but we can always do better. Right? I think that this is a world where depending upon the tradesperson I talk to, some like listen, I'm okay with 80% accuracy, I just need it done quickly. They're also playing, I want 99.9% accuracy and I'm willing to take the time. We have different tension points from different clients, and it's actually based off size, like the bigger customers just want to get it done because they add enough buffer, whereas the tradesperson wants it done correctly. So I think that we are sort of still navigating the tension, but that is our laser focus right now is continue to improve the accuracy and the precision.

Robert: That's an interesting point. you know, size and and buffer. You know,

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: stop and think about this. You're a large company and you're maybe one of three that could actually do the project because of your size, you have your asset capability, what you whatever your capacity is. So you get the opportunity to throw a bit more buffer here and there. Smaller contractors can't do that, right? And we get into the trades where we start talking about that, they maybe they're trying to stretch a little bit and get into a bigger job. they can't really add too much buffer because then they're sitting there, I'm trying to win this bid. I I would rather be more accurate than you know, than I would be close enough to, you know, get me into that but because their margins are so thin. at that point. they've got a lot of w they they got the overhead, they've got everything they've got to take care of. And then they're just trying to make that, you know, trying to step into that next job. And then they're just kind of running money through the account. I think it's interesting it's an interesting view there. It's something people don't think about a lot of times.

Viyas: I could not agree with you more. And I make it akin to the actual construction process. So one of the things that my daughters sort of got caught on early is that construction is the art of layering on top of imperfections. Right? If you just think about it, you have framing. Framing's not very attractive. If you think about a residential job, which is why you put drywall on top of that framing and insulation. And then you mud it, you sand it down. Like there's there's all these things that are imperfect. The next layer makes it more perfect and more perfect and more perfect. But if you're working in a small space or a very precision product, like a like carpentry and actually doing customized built-ins, you don't have as much latitude for imperfections in that world. Very

Robert: Yeah, you've got very s very small tolerances, right?

Viyas: small tolerances. And the items behind you on our podcast right now are a perfect example of that. Very small tolerances. I think the same thing's applicable to the trades, right? When you're a large contractor, you have so much buffer and overhead that allows you to sort of put layers and layers to cover up imperfections. You just want to get things done quickly because you now have enough of a formula, you can absorb it. Whereas that tradesperson is the equivalent of that customized built-in, right? You don't have that latitude, that buffer. So precision and accuracy does matter. And I think this is where it gets exciting because as the world of pre-construction tech becomes more automated and automates more of this algorithmic function, it ends up serving. Excuse language, both masters, right? It ends up giving the accuracy and the precision for the person that doesn't have the margin stack to lose in the SMB tradesperson, but allows that general contractor also to optimize their or the larger tradesperson to optimize their profit margins. Because in theory, you solve for the tradesperson on that SMB side, that

Robert: Mm-hmm.

Viyas: is a benefit that goes all the way uphill to that larger customer that has more buffer.

Robert: Yeah, you know, the big thing I always talked about with we we kind of I think touched on it early was, you know, about the planning. And you talk about again, we the vagueness of the term pre construction. a big portion of that, obviously estimating takeoffs, those types of things. A lot of times it feels like pre construction is bleeding over into the construction portion because of things like long lead times, eighty percent complete. you know, drawings, change orders is is another big one, or even rework. when it kind of gets down to it, it's like you can't it's tough to plan for that. It's tough to put that in that pre-construction folder. So now we're kind of bleeding over those two edges of that part's done. Now we're here. But really pre construction is never done in today's world. we're going back change orders especially what the way I look at it. Change orders are are it's just start the process over again from part one because you're not only having to do a new takeoff, right? You're having to think about what else am I going to affect if I change this, what else gets happens in my project? I gotta put a bid out on it, I gotta get sign offs on it, basically sign, you know, the change orders is just another section an addendum to the contract. I mean, when is pre again, when are we gonna stop calling it pre construction?

Viyas: I think that we stop calling it pre-construction once we create that feedback loop. Because you think about the general contractor space, you think about even the some of the people in the trade space, they are very some of them are very niche providers, right? There are people that specialize in building schools, there are people that specialize in building churches, etc. if you think about all those change orders, all those annotations that come through. If we had the data from every job site where they actually saw the foundation of why that change order is coming through, and now mind you, some of it is customer desire changes things, right? But there are things that we're seeing on site that influence that change order. At the point that we are able to create that virtuous loop of getting all those insights, all that data, which by the way is not crawlable by AI, this is why AI will not replace the trades, is because we're in that dirty and dangerous space. We're getting that information. When we create that virtuous loop in, Now it's no longer pre construction. It is actually a circle of construction, right? Because you no longer have that shit flowing downhill funnel, which is was where the pre construction world comes in. Now the pre construction space disappears, right? Because the trades and the people that are actually on the job site are another data point that feeds into the overall circle of the construction loop in my mind. There is no pre when it's a loop.

Robert: Yeah, I agree with you on that. It's it's you've got to create that you've got to create that feedback loop to start to eliminate some of the same mistakes over and over

Viyas: Yes.

Robert: that we've been continually making. it because we're we're you know, humans are a are per a perfect invention, but we're perfectly imperfect. I I I I you know We're a conundrum, you know, wrapped in a riddle, I guess, as as they would say. But I think it brings up a good point of when you say, you know, AI is not going to replace and I I work with AI every day. Stentorian Research is a fully AI kind of native company. I work do that's what it does. so I build agents and you know the things that I find And I wanted to get your opinion on this because like we said, when you when you slap the label of AI on your product, okay, okay, what does that mean? Well, look, where AI is today, the way I see it is it's being trained by humans who are just as fallible as we have ever been. And ultimately the you when they say garbage in, garbage out. That is exactly what we're going to continue to get if we don't start to change our processes. I don't and I wanted to get your opinion on this because I don't necessarily know that it's you know, because you said, you know, AI is not going to be able to get into that dirty environment and i that kind of thing. We're still taking the opinions of, you know, seventy percent, eighty percent of the the construction population if if we're using AI, right? And we're just formulated into a statistical probability that says, Well, here's your answer. I what's your thoughts on that? I mean AI is a tool. Are you thinking it's it's it's not gonna automate itself?

Viyas: Yeah. I could not agree with you more. I am completely comfortable asking Chat GPT for restaurant recommendations for a date night with my wife, because worst case scenario, I'm gonna have to buy a few extra glasses of wine and the meal wasn't good and we'll still have a grand old time. Whereas doing it for someone on business functions, I'm not sure I have the latitude of making that error, right? And I

Robert: Yeah.

Viyas: think now we're sort of getting into an intersection of See something you said there's so important, garbage in, garbage out. I think there's a garbage in, garbage out dynamic and also data privacy and protection conversation that are now parallel together. And I think that interesting enough, those two meaty conversations actually connected, create, I think, an alignment that we now are at least from a stack standpoint, we see in the market. Is as we think about automating those workflows, I'm not interested in using publicly available information to help automate a takeoff and estimate on behalf of that tradesperson. I'm interested in that tradesperson having the equity and ownership of their own data set that they're not sharing with other people unless they want to, that they're using their own data set, and every project they do becomes more intelligent based off the data they've put in on the projects they've worked on. And they can opt in to using other data sets if they want. But I think now we have to give customers the ability to decide what is the framework by which they want AI to process data for them and for Date night, great. Let the public tell me great ideas of restaurants. But for the next electrical takeoff that I need to do, I want to use my previous project so I know that I'm the one that did it. So I know that there isn't garbage in, garbage out. So I think that that's a world we're in.

Robert: And I also think that's got to be the comparison point too. You still need to be able to go, if I'm in a market, you know, whatever niche I'm in, whatever market that I'm in, I've got some public data over here. This is where I start, kind of like that baseline it it's a little fuzzy, but it's at least a a starting point. And then as I start to collect my jobs and my data, then I start to compare it back and I start to look at it and go Okay, this part might been w might have been great, pretty, pretty, pretty accurate. Here's some areas where it's really f you know, totally different. My processes and my input, the the human side of the world,

Viyas: Mm-hmm.

Robert: doesn't match up with what national average is or whatever

Viyas: Exactly.

Robert: this is. And I think that's very, very important for these businesses to recognize.

Viyas: not agree more because the reason that that tradesperson is so successful and I've used success broadly, right? If you're just a one-person tradesperson all the way to running a trades company, the reason they're successful is because they figured out to how to solve that time and quality portion of that conversation. Like that's what makes the experts sort of thrive in that world. Because the cost piece ultimately There's ways to sort of value engineer the cost piece, but your ability to deliver a project on time and good quality is what separates the great tradespeople from the average tradespeople. And that is a human element that comes into that, in my opinion.

Robert: Yeah, I gotta I'm gonna disagree with you a little bit on the value engineering. I've never seen anything be value engineered to a proper standard. I I I I I just you know I'm saying it's like if there's a misunderstanding. I think it's a it's a misnomer. Value engineering might be an oxymoron for me because value comes from you know, value is not the same thing as cost. So

Viyas: Absolutely fair.

Robert: And I think that's the difference. I think cost engineering might be a better

Viyas: Yeah.

Robert: better way to say it, but value engineering is not I I just you know, I I I have to push back on that one.

Viyas: Y you're a hundred percent. It's cost engineering. And what I and what I'm alluding to is I think the reason you see me have so much bias towards the time and quality part of that triangle is I think that the automations through workflows and AI are really gonna change the cost engineering part of that conversation. So if a and when I think about cost engineering, to your point, like though you're right, value engineering can be a really It can be a lightning rod of a conversation. If you're going to change the recommendation of that tradesperson because you're trying to fit it in a cost basis, you're right. There is all kinds of negative ramifications for that conversation. 100%.

Robert: That's a that is a Pandora's box you do not want.

Viyas: But that GC, and this goes back to the art of imperfection that is currently in the contractual bidding process, there's so many layers in there that In my mind, those workflows and automations should give more flexibility and all that fat that has been put in the middle that ultimately is not going to a tradesperson. And in some cases, may not even go to the GC, right? Because they're not calculating the waste. They're not calculating the change orders as proactively as they possibly can. That I my my hope and aspiration is that that more automations that have on the workflow piece, it allows people to cost engineer through automation versus sacrificing the quality on the job site.

Robert: Yeah, I I agree with you there. So kind of last point here, I'll let you we'll let it wrap this up, but I wanted to talk about, you know, and it kinda leads us into this final point. I think AI is going to instruct us in ways that we're we're not ready for. I think it already has. I think technology in itself, I think just the idea of coding a workflow and defining a workflow has challenged us to a point where some folks are just like, stop. You know, I don't wanna go down that road. I've seen it when I've done productivity studies for companies and things like that where you start to expose the kind of the raw edges of as we've been discussing it, our processes. And I wanted to get your take on that because again, a a takeoff and an estimate says, I think you can do this with this material. Right? And then at the end of it all, when the project's finishing up, well, we were missing this piece and this piece. Well, why were we missing this piece and this piece? And why did it take three weeks longer to put those pieces in when we estimated this much time and those kind of things?

Viyas: So is the question how do we sort of make sure that the aperture of AI is what we actually need and doesn't sort of expand us into areas that we are not as interested in?

Robert: Well, I'm thinking how do we start to really get honest with ourselves first to get the output that we want from our technology or our AI or whatever we want? How do we start going down that road?

Viyas: Yeah, I think so. I was in having this I was playing poker a few nights ago with folks that are far more intellectual than myself, and they're having all this intense conversation around AI. What does it mean for the future of humanity? And I was like, listen, I just want to know whether I need to fold this hand or not. But the one of the conversations that came up was this interesting conversation of the the war in Ukraine right now and how Autonomous drones have widened the quote unquote kill zone in that world, right? Whereas before the contact zone was just whatever, one or two kilometers in front of you. But now drone warfare has widened that to 12 times or whatever the number is. I sort of used that, that sort of just got me thinking about I think that's the way that we now need to start thinking about how we process data to make decisions for what we want AI to do for us. 'Cause I think what AI has enabled us to do, and forgive the metaphor to a battlefield, like what people are doing on behalf of their countries is makes what we do by day pale in comparison, is we have access to so much more data, and what AI is allowing us to do is to process more of that data. So if I think about it from a tradesperson standpoint, if I'm in a world where I've worked with the same supplier over and over again, in theory, that loyalty matters, but what is happening now with AI and the data points is that you can widen that aperture. And now I can easily get information from multiple other suppliers, even though I'm gonna be loyal to mine, but it kind of keeps our suppliers and our tradespeople in an honest dynamic. I think that as we navigate the world of AI is first being comfortable of widening the aperture of like, okay, what is beyond what's in front of me from a data standpoint that I can now equ easily ingest in. And then to your point, usually human nature sort of double check that, right? Is that This other supplier is coming in 15% lower than my usual supplier. that's because they didn't put the same waste coefficient on it that mine does, because he knows how or she knows my projects really well. So there's gonna be a human element to it, but I think we first had to be comfortable sort widen the aperture of getting more data because we now have the ability of consuming it more, but then being more diligent with it day in and day out. Similar to what I tell my daughters, like, don't believe what you see on the internet. You had a fact checked everything, you come in there, that as we widen that aperture. then use the human element to process it so that you can actually make the AI work for you, versus just opening up the kimono and letting it all in, and then to your point, it becomes garbage in, garbage out.

Robert: Yeah. Yeah, I got it. Yeah, that's a nice visual there, yeah. All right. Well, it's been a fantastic conversation. You know, forty five minutes goes by pretty quick around here in Texas. listened, I I think we've had a really, really good conversation about the things how do folks get a hold of stack of if they wanna know more about the product, that kind of thing.

Viyas: Absolutely. No, go to www.stack ct dot com. unlike other people that's throwing just throwing AI on it, we're still construction tech, so stack construction technology, you can Google us or come to our website. there we make our pro our product free for all people to try out and sort of get a b use it for bids and whatnot to sort of see the value. But feel free to sort of engage there and then obviously if anyone is in the world of LinkedIn, they can always find me. But also if you Google me my email comes up and I'm always happy to talk to a trades person one one on one.

Robert: Fantastic. Well, Vias, thank you so much for your time today. I really do appreciate it and had a great conversation. We'd love to have you back on again in the future and just, you know, talk some more.

Viyas: Absolutely, Robert. Thank you so much for having me. It was truly a pleasure and can't wait to chat more about acoustics. That was an awesome conversation as well. All right, take

Robert: All right, very good.

Viyas: care. Bye-bye.